I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. Some people might even accuse you of idolatry. Sep 29, 2021. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. For a long time, a noted Christian apologist has publicly staked out a position that challenges the literal claims in the Book of Genesis but another apologist warns that position is a dangerous denial of truth and scripture. Theres a lot of people in scripture including Joseph that doesnt say anything that she gave birth to anybody and others that he didnt give birth to older step siblings of Jesus, so thats an argument from silence. It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. Do you still have it? Adelphos is not my issue. Because once again, not every truth of the faith, not every truth about first century life, for example, has been handed down to us. Well, Matt, thank you so much for hosting this debate, Steve, thank you very much for agreeing to debate me again. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. Also, Christie claims, as do many Protestants, that Jesus and the apostles endorsed only the Protestant canon because they never explicitly cite the deuterocanonical books of Scripture. Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. Thats kind of hard. Just want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the live chat or who watch this later. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. So this next question is for you, Steve. The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. No, it doesnt. Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. This sure is fun, isnt it? Thats fine. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Well, not necessarily. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Second, this debate is not about the church fathers or Christian history. And two, they are binding to the faithful Catholic, who is threatened with an anathema if they reject any of them, despite them all contradicting God-breathed scripture. Their issue is about the authority of the church. And there, we would just debate about whether sacred tradition is a plausible source of divine revelation. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. And again, scripture states, Because Jesus is God is why he would not inherit sin like Mary did, because Mary is not God, unless Trent is going in that direction, which I dont think it is. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. Oh, wow. It is fitting, therefore its true. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. No, thats not the case. They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. You got five minutes, right? I run morning podcasts here on locals. Yeah. So it must be used in some other way. No. And they did not want people following them. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. So theres lots of bad arguments. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. And so I would say if youre a Protestant, for Protestants and Catholics, if the Marian dogmas can occupy at least that place. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. Im running out of time. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. Okay. How do we know theyre brothers? So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. The Story of Reality: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses His New Book. Ive crowned myself king, and I demand it. I thought about writing a book on-. Since the Catholic church is certain that the brothers of Jesus are anything other than biological siblings, meaning uterine siblings, why are they not able to be just a certain specifically who they are? "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my Thanks for the super chat. So my point here is clear. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? First Mary may be speaking of salvation from dangers in this life, rather than dangers in the next life. Okay. As an authorised Mesabi dealer and supplier of tube and shell . Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. And I think thats something that we do find. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Christie has nine field goals in overtime to his credit, an NFL record he shares with Jason Elam and Jim Breech. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. Im not sure. When it came to the immaculate conception, Steve did not really put forward any argument to show Mary sinned herself. Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? . According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. . Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. Please click that. 0. Hallo.com/mattfred. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. Yeah, sounds good. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. This is fantastic. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. Yet, if Mary did not inherit the stain of original sin passed down from Adam, she would not have died and therefore no need to rescue her from death before her earthly life ended. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. Sean McDowell, Ph.D. is a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University, a best-selling author of over 18 books, an internationally recognized speaker, and a part-time high school teacher. In fact, Josephus recorded a Zechariah being killed in the temple thirty-five years after the crucifixion (Jewish War 4:5:4). The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. And again, just to give an example in the Septuagint, in the Book of Sirach, which is inspired for Trent, but its not inspired for me, it uses the Greek word [Greek 00:47:52], which is a masculine form of [Greek 00:47:55] when it says, Hail Mary, full of grace. And its used to describe a man who is full of grace. Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. Moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old Testament canon are contradicted by the biblical and historical evidence. Do it right now. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. But renowned Protestant Greek grammarian Bill Mounce says Jesus reference to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel is actually a sarcastic rebuke. I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? That she was conceived without original sin? And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. 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